Cold death of the competitive scene
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Update: after several discussions with several prominent scenario and custom map players, I've came up with some palpable demands. Since some people constantly say they don't get the point of this post, let me state it clearly for them. More points will be added in the future.
Without those, CW scene will still be practically and technically locked on EU+ 10k as it is right now.
The extra point of the post is for competitive community to stop being self-centered. I've presented my insight on why the community is dying and offered several options to prevent the cold death. It's the competitive community's choice whether they ignore it, or face the issue instead. Seeing the responses and upvotes to this post, I see many familiar faces from the competitive scene supporting it. For the rest of the community I have a clear message, to stop being delusional.
I am still wondering how much time it has to take to make people realize some apparent things.
First of all, the number of competitive players is constantly shrinking. Since almost all currently active ones registered before 2016 and you can see more and more players going inactive every day, the trend is obvious. Currently active coalitions have at most 100 competitive players, for which I doubt more than half are active. Back in 2016 in the peak period of overall activity, Epic Clan had almost 60 members itself, out of which almost all played CW. Let's not even mention other coalitions like ENIGMA, SM and Mystics all had 20-30 players each. MK and several other smaller coalitions had up to 20 aswell. Unlike in this moment, at that time 90% of the mentioned players were active. The bar to join is very high aswell. All the skills of new players are overshadowed by experience of the old players who are playing the same map for years and years.
Second, the most basic competitive setting, EU+ 10k, has been played out. Since the vast majority of games are played with 6 picks and each team can pick one of the two picks in three parts of the map, there are 8 combinations total to play. Even with a few extra combinations, there is not much change. Adding that the most games are decided in first 8 turns, you can conclude the initial picks as well as the initial picks are the deciding factor in the victory. Now tell me what is the last time you've seen something new happening in CW? All moves have already been seen, they all have been played out. There have been at least 6000 CWs so far (90% of them on EU+) and at least 10 times that many duels on EU+.
The solution to that is obvious, and it's that the competitive scene stops being elitist, exclusive and egocentric. Playing diverse maps, even the other parts of world map, as well as scenarios, would increase the number of people participating in CWs 10 times. There are far more scenario, RP and world map players than competitive players, as it could be seen from several polls conducted in past. The exclusion of them from one of the most interesting features this game offers has to stop, or the game will ultimately suffer. Choose wisely.
Below is the competitive scene, colorized
- Make scenario CWs work. Currently, it's technically impossible to play such game.
- Have a scenario / custom map mod. Currently, there are zero custom map mods, let alone scenario mods.
- Stop mods from disallowing ghosting in scenarios. So far there have been numerous warnings regarding this, I'm not sure have there been more severe actions. Forcing the ghosting rule in scenarios would severely hurt the game.
- Make a functioning map editor. Already discussed in other threads. I've been told it's very bugged and needs a lot more work.
Without those, CW scene will still be practically and technically locked on EU+ 10k as it is right now.
The extra point of the post is for competitive community to stop being self-centered. I've presented my insight on why the community is dying and offered several options to prevent the cold death. It's the competitive community's choice whether they ignore it, or face the issue instead. Seeing the responses and upvotes to this post, I see many familiar faces from the competitive scene supporting it. For the rest of the community I have a clear message, to stop being delusional.
I am still wondering how much time it has to take to make people realize some apparent things.
First of all, the number of competitive players is constantly shrinking. Since almost all currently active ones registered before 2016 and you can see more and more players going inactive every day, the trend is obvious. Currently active coalitions have at most 100 competitive players, for which I doubt more than half are active. Back in 2016 in the peak period of overall activity, Epic Clan had almost 60 members itself, out of which almost all played CW. Let's not even mention other coalitions like ENIGMA, SM and Mystics all had 20-30 players each. MK and several other smaller coalitions had up to 20 aswell. Unlike in this moment, at that time 90% of the mentioned players were active. The bar to join is very high aswell. All the skills of new players are overshadowed by experience of the old players who are playing the same map for years and years.
Second, the most basic competitive setting, EU+ 10k, has been played out. Since the vast majority of games are played with 6 picks and each team can pick one of the two picks in three parts of the map, there are 8 combinations total to play. Even with a few extra combinations, there is not much change. Adding that the most games are decided in first 8 turns, you can conclude the initial picks as well as the initial picks are the deciding factor in the victory. Now tell me what is the last time you've seen something new happening in CW? All moves have already been seen, they all have been played out. There have been at least 6000 CWs so far (90% of them on EU+) and at least 10 times that many duels on EU+.
The solution to that is obvious, and it's that the competitive scene stops being elitist, exclusive and egocentric. Playing diverse maps, even the other parts of world map, as well as scenarios, would increase the number of people participating in CWs 10 times. There are far more scenario, RP and world map players than competitive players, as it could be seen from several polls conducted in past. The exclusion of them from one of the most interesting features this game offers has to stop, or the game will ultimately suffer. Choose wisely.
Below is the competitive scene, colorized
Sorry, this thread is so long I stopped reading it a long time ago. It just looks like another flame war to me. When you guys are done arguing, somebody please summarize for me, in as few words as possible, what is it that you want? The "this communtiy" vs "that community" arguments don't persuade me about anything. If you want me to do something, just straight up tell me what you want and I'll consider it. 
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I'll contact you soon.
----  We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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Tl:dr They want a "scenario" mod because they feel underrepresented. They quote bans for ghosting in scenarios as an example of this. Also generic complaint about map maker etc..
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njab Konto kustutatud |
njab Konto kustutatud
I will contact you soon aswell.
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Hellykin, watch your big mouth because you say stuff you know nothing about. Mod or not, you are not allowed to critisize me, understand? You call me nazi? Sure, I'll go nazi mode and ban you if that's what you want, all you got to do is spread more rumours and it will happen. However, I find it funny, the lesson that life teaches you. The one with the dirtiest nest, is the one who talks the most about other nests. Look at your own self please, do not talk about me, to anyone, especially since you are saying fake and very insulting stuff. I don't care who you think you are, really. I don't care who you think I am. I don't care what you think I should do and believe in. Everyone talks safely from the sofa when it comes to politics, isn't that right? Yeah you know what I mean.
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I couldn't be arsed reading all hellraisers drama. I've seen enough. When i joined Stalins Martians a few years ago i watched him play a clan war with 2 of sm's lowranks of that time. It was a combo of either sultan, checkmate and universali. Anyway he went germany and played horribly throwing the cw. I wouldn't have cared but he then proceeded to blame the 2 low ranks who had played far better than him and did their best. Nothing has changed since then. The guy is a total pissant. I wonder is his behavior in part the fault of the old stalins crew who tolerated him and never seemed to call him out on his egotistical and self centered behavior - and his love of playing the victim.
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I apologize, people change cc. I am sorry I got caught up in the arguement and i should not of typed that. Because yes you are correct i dont know anything about you, nor where you the one devolving the conversation, i regret my decision and apologize.
---- We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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Infact I find myself getting baited here, and yes I was foolish, peoples attack on my personal character got to me and i allowed it to divert the conversation from the issue at hand.
---- We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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People have opinions, and should be free to share them without being called useless by people who think they are better for whatever reason. It doesnt matter if they are right or wrong, only the fact they should be allowed to participate in discussions that impact them. Currently there is no discussion being held. Most of the community, their ideas, and what they believe is not being heard. That is fact and it is wrong.
---- We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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Exactly. I am continually baffled at the amount that EU+ is played. I would have died of boredom before r5 if the World Map was the only map! I've been following the CW reporting in the atWar Press, and yeah, it's the same thing every time, and they never see more than two reinforcement turns.  There are a number of reasonably balanced maps with some variety in size: Dreamworld, Destoria, Lunatis, Foundation's Edge, Strangereal, The Lost Sea, Naval Warfare, the Eurasian preset (not great, but better w/o extra cities), and others that are not coming to mind at the moment. In every one of these cases, there are rich and poor and middle class territories spread around the maps in a deliberate fashion, and they have a reasonably diverse array of geographic obstacles that do not favor one part of the map more than another. If you want to go very big, the same can be said for World Avetisia III. Out of all of my games, I have played maybe 3 dozen scenarios (including my own creations), and 1 RP. I compete in private and public games on a variety of maps, not just the ones listed above.
---- Embrace the void 
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You've seen it elsewhere, but since this thread is about things like CWs, then I will repeat the request for a Turn 0 so that casual CWs may be played. That would be very helpful in boosting the competitive scene. I know for a fact that my coalition, Casual Ties, would have been more consistently active, and would have had dozens of CWs long ago (rather than 8), had we been able to have a CW where players would have the first 12, 24, or 48 hrs to join. For example, some coalitions, such as The Musketeers, have a bunch of players that want to play us in CWs, but most live in Europe, while most of us in Casual Ties live in the Western Hemisphere (another of ours that was more active lives in Australia, and another that was very active until recently lives in Russia). Some of the inactivity you currently see in my coalition is due to the fact that it was impossible to get the casual CW scene off the ground. Some just lost interest, unfortunately, including some very good players. In fact, this is partly why you are seeing a spate of casual tournaments, such as the Risk FFA tournament currently hosted by Taz Youlkepoye and Apocalypse, and a 2v2 on Symmetric Europe that I'll be co-hosting with Taz Youlkepoye starting next month. About a year before you arrived, there was a successful single-elimination casual 1v1 tournament hosted by Noir Brillant.
---- Embrace the void
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The main points being raised here are that scenario players feel there is no structure to support competetive play. As far as I know and I maybe wrong, scenarios are not available to clan war on. I think with leagues based on scenarios would add a totally new dimension to competetive play and increase activity exponentially, different maps having different leagues elimintes the conflict of interest in terms of how map/scenario settings are reflective of a players ability. The community is already based on a close knit niche section of gaming, to have it divided through grouped inferiority compexex is pointless. There is surely a workable solution so that what has naturally become the standard 'elite' platform for competitive play 3v3, can be recognised and hopefully used as a standard precedent for this game as it is obviously by far the most popular, whilst offering a platform for players to be able to undertake competetive gameplay in their own setting without it impacting on a game setting which is so different it may as well be another platform. Ivans objection to including scenarios in competive play were issues relating to unbalanced sides and farm maps, my counter suggestion is to have competetive scenarios approved by mods, as scenarios can be balanced and even demonstrated by 'Wheel of War 4v4', is 100% balanced . Should this suggestion be considered it then leads to how this would be structured. Summary: we have so many clans involved in scenario based activity and having other league formats, seperated by settings and scenarios would also encourage more established players to explore different game types as the motivation of winning other awards would exist without impacting on what already exists and accustomed to.
---- intelligence + imagination = extraordinary result
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You cant compare both because a forum post like this doesnt have the purpose of garning most votes. The ' egg' has totally different purpose. Surely with your wise mind you'd understand this. A game like Atwar which has not a huge active player base that gathers almost 300 unique players who have seen/ read the post and almost 100 votes in just a few days is rare. Just think about how many active members on a daily basis we have. It would have been wise to say that you just disagree with njab and not that his post is stupid or meaningless, since u will indirectly say that the voice of 100 people is stupid and meaningless. That is what creates a border between you and the likes of yours and the many who take up and vote for this.
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Here i have done some work for you. In my opinion these players play lots of eu comp games. Just look at the ss for proof. Next time u bring numbers do some investigation. At the moment there were roughly 80 upvotes. 26 out of 80 is 32.5%. After 80 upvotes i didnt count. If you take into consideration of future/ todays upvotes (roughly 100). You would get roughly 26%. Yourlife https://prnt.sc/mdkcil The Troll https://prnt.sc/mdkcw3 Don https://prnt.sc/mdkd6s Trystane https://prnt.sc/mdkdic Sun Tsu https://prnt.sc/mdkdso Franz https://prnt.sc/mdke5o Apocalypse https://prnt.sc/mdkeeg 1GodofWar1 https://prnt.sc/mdkexx Freeman https://prnt.sc/mdkf69 Dragon https://prnt.sc/mdkfjd Roscosmos https://prnt.sc/mdkfre Tirpitz 406 https://prnt.sc/mdkg1j Tzion https://prnt.sc/mdkgdd Domo https://prnt.sc/mdkgnc Dominik56 https://prnt.sc/mdkh1i Garde https://prnt.sc/mdkhgd Tengri https://prnt.sc/mdkhyt The Hellenic https://prnt.sc/mdki8f Kaixo https://prnt.sc/mdkijj HU4Rollz https://prnt.sc/mdkiwz Pera https://prnt.sc/mdkj7s The Phenomenon https://prnt.sc/mdkjec AdorableChrome https://prnt.sc/mdkjmc lihann https://prnt.sc/mdkk1q DaisySenpai and Ratwar have also many duels/ eu plays. If you regard these players as scenario/ scenario- only players and not eu players then i think we are not living in the same dimension.
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A mod should be removing posts that derail topics, not threatening to lock them becausee he doeesnt like whats said even after contributing to the 'flame war himself. How can any mod which is supposedly impartial then have an opinion on which other players opinions are valid or not. Everyone is here to play the game and most have payed or will pay money to do so.
---- intelligence + imagination = extraordinary result
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Each and every one of us works differently. I saw those posts that included insults, and had to warn, because this is a thread that needs discussion. Can you tell me how was I contributing on the flame war? I am always on the discussion and the fact that none of you can't understand this irritates me. I'm not even going to bother answering this. I have explained myself multiple times, if you can't understand what I'm saying and make me repeat myself, don't bother replying to me.
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In any thread that ends in Competitive vs Scenario any post will be regarded as flaming. Like it or not but thats the truth. Also mods should be able to remove insulting and off-topic posts withouut closing the tread. And if you think it could be abused it should be able to at least hide that kind of posts. And mods are humans and part of the comunity so they have the right to voice their opinion with respect.
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Just removed about 3 pages of complete nonsense, reminder to keep posts on-topic or they'll be removed. The root issue is that some people don't know how to quote to save their life, so please let acqui teach you here https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=19336
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Have fun with your little dying community that is the only one that doesnt get new players that is shrinking every day
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Add a scenario mapmaker mod like aetius or pyrrhus so that this problem is fixed if scenario cws are added competitive mods shouldnt be the ones judging if it should be played or not just one more reason scenario mods are a must for the game
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Add scenario mods
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Thanks, you too 
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No. Read my post.
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I have been a player since 2013, something I similarly told to Dave. I appreciate both sides of the community competitive and scenario for having something they love enjoying and devote their time too even though I'm mostly a scenario player at heart. The community has become divided over time in no small part however due to this competitive and scenario mod thing, and the moderator team being filled with individuals who grew up and evolved in this era of competitives vs scenario players and thus have holdover bias's that while they may try to hide really can't get rid of as is natural with the human psyche. From how I see it there is only two ways to really go forward here as I also told Dave, the moderation team must be overhauled in some form, maybe as a type of rotation of trusted individuals and not permanent "mostly" offices of power so as to put new people in charge who have not taken a side yet on the entire competitive vs scenario problem and thus give us a chance at a truly partial moderation team who do things based on actual issues and not naked ideology, or put forward a possible scenario mod and keep up the same old trend of modship but trying to balance it out. Overall I just want AtWar to return to its golden age where people didn't troll abandon maps in favor of their own favorites and moderators while still slightly biased atleast seemed to care about the issues at hand instead of their own promoted ideologies. May Dave find a way to fix this problem and move AtWar into the future as a community out of the trenches it has found itself dug into for so long.
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