That was pretty stupid black shark. clearly you are from krym. CLEARLY. if you were from krym, you would also know that not even half of the population voted. the tatars protested the vote. the pro-russian leader of krym is on the run. russians arent even getting touched in krym. yet - there are a ton of videas showing ukrainians beat in krym.
That was pretty stupid Nastya. Clearly you are from Ukraine. CREARLY. If you were from Ukraine, you would know that Tatars are a minority and close to 50 percent. The Tatars, one of the minorities boycotted the vote. There are no reports of the Crimean president on the run (please show proof). There are videoa of Russians beating nationalist Ukrainians.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you said like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
That was pretty stupid black shark. clearly you are from krym. CLEARLY. if you were from krym, you would also know that not even half of the population voted. the tatars protested the vote. the pro-russian leader of krym is on the run. russians arent even getting touched in krym. yet - there are a ton of videas showing ukrainians beat in krym.
That was pretty stupid Nastya. Clearly you are from Ukraine. CREARLY. If you were from Ukraine, you would know that Tatars are a minority and close to 50 percent. The Tatars, one of the minorities boycotted the vote. There are no reports of the Crimean president on the run (please show proof). There are videoa of Russians beating nationalist Ukrainians.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you said like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
I feel sorry for you then if you cant held free elections(referendum). But it seems im again right about east part of the planet. We are more free than our fellow humans from the western hemisphere.
I could never live in totalitaristic regime like you. I cant understand why you dont overthrow your fascist government so you can regain your freedom and live like decent man.
Here we can hold referendum anytime we want about anything, government doesnt have to do with it anything. Only if political things are in question we need to collect signs in petition(50k) and then hold referendum. It is really that easy.
That's just ridiculous. Are you even trying to make a point here? Really? So once you have a petition, the government takes no part at all in the referendum? o.O The people organize the voting and counting of the votes? That sounds like anarchy to me. Many western governments have a systems where people can propose laws by petition as well. This doesn't make them "not facists" or "not totalitarian". The fact that our provincial government has to be democratically elected with a mandate to hold a referendum before becoming independent is a good thing. If 50K people could propose a referendum any time, we'd be having countless unnecessary referendums (costing millions to the taxpayer).
Funny that your definition of facist is not being able to hold a referendum by petition. I have a very different definition of facist. It includes a totalitarian government, full control of the press and imprisonment of political opponents. Yet, even though Russia's current government meets these 3 criteria, I wouldn't go so far as to call it facist.
No one seized krim's parliament, russians were chilling in their bases and Krim made their own defense forces, there were no soldiers in Simferopol. When parliament voted independence soldiers started making baricades and checkpoints to protect crimeans from ukranian terrorists and fascists who tried to import explosives. Normally those terrorists were backed by CIA and USA, crimean self-defense forces captured them and sent to Russian Base on Sevastopol and Yalta. I believe russians sent them by now deep into Ural in some soviet prison questioning who stand behind these terrorist attacks. I hope they torture those evil bastards, they wish they were never born, they will curse the day when they opened their eyes.
So your contention is that no armed men entered the Crimean parliament? At all? No one forced the previous president to leave? This just never happened? Did you ever read 1984?
I also am sad to see - but not surprised - that you support the use of torture. Facist regimes use torture frequently. Perhaps you have more in common with facists then you would like to think. Of course someone who is tortured will admit to pretty much anything, even the most ridiculous conspiracy theory.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you sound like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
это уже нагло говорить такое! please use logic here. WHY WOULD PEOPLE KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE?! you think that maidan supporters would snipe another maidan supporter? also - please check your sources. I believe in North Korea there is quite a bit of filtering of information. I think you've lost all credibilty in this whole conversation.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you sound like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
это уже нагло говорить такое! please use logic here. WHY WOULD PEOPLE KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE?! you think that maidan supporters would snipe another maidan supporter? also - please check your sources. I believe in North Korea there is quite a bit of filtering of information. I think you've lost all credibilty in this whole conversation.
I in fact, have the same question. And I may have the awnser. It provokes violence, and frames the police.
''Alright, we need to make our enemies look bad, what we do?''
''We shoot at our own people!''
''uw0tm8''
''That's the point! People would think that the police killed our people!''
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you sound like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
это уже нагло говорить такое! please use logic here. WHY WOULD PEOPLE KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE?! you think that maidan supporters would snipe another maidan supporter? also - please check your sources. I believe in North Korea there is quite a bit of filtering of information. I think you've lost all credibilty in this whole conversation.
I in fact, have the same question. And I may have the awnser. It provokes violence, and frames the police.
''Alright, we need to make our enemies look bad, what we do?''
''We shoot at our own people!''
''uw0tm8''
''That's the point! People would think that the police killed our people!''
''ooh''
what you are saying is retardation. at its finest. Because the police allied with the people two days later.
You seem to not have a solid understanding of the internal military system of ukraine.
-Berkut - our riot police who are mostly assholes because they are the succesor to the KGB
Berkut do not snipe people. In fact, there is no internal sniper division.
This was investigated by Ukraine and many different countries confirmed that the snipers were NOT ukrainian.
let me spell this out - SNIPERS WERE NOT UKRAINIAN
A referendum is democratic only if it is held by a democratically elected administration.
Tsiteeri:
Please go check what referendum means then come back.
Referendum is held by people, start by people and end by people decision, government has nothing to do with it.
The 'Crimean Referendum' was not even a 'referendum'.
One question per issue, yes/no or accept/reject is a necessary condition of a referendum. Why? Specifically to avoid the 'false choice' issue for which the Crimea vote was heavily criticized.
The exceptions to the plain meaning of referendum are rare, constrained, and of manifest insignificance compared with the question of nationhood.
So, the Crimean vote was an exception to the plain meaning of referendum - we can change the meaning of the word referendum, because something called that happened in a place occupied by a foreign army, or we can reject the application of the word to the events surrounding the Crimean vote.
The more correct term for the 'Crimean vote' would be plebiscite. Mincing words isn't my objective however; small differences have large consequences when it comes to the Rule of Law.
===
If 'democratic' means conducted by 'legally equal citizenry', under the 'rule of law' and 'free' (liberal democracy), where political power is vested in representatives and sovereign power remains with the people, Grimm has it right.
If 'democratic' means 'mob rule', 'majoritarian' or 'ochlocracy', then you have it right.
A referendum need not be conducted under the principles of liberal democracy. Fascist governments hold referendum.
That being said, government has *everything* to do with it.
- If the Crimean parliament were acting outside of the law under which they were constituted, then they were acting illegally and undemocratically, under both senses of the term 'democratically'. Being forced to vote on a false choice or not to vote at all is not a 'free' choice, and is also undemocractic.
- If one argues the Crimean parliament were responding to a higher law; their duties as custodians of the Crimean people's sovereign power, responding to an illegal government in Ukraine and under 'Kosovo 2010' authority, then their actions from declaration forward to the plebiscite *may* have been legal (not under Ukrainian law), but certainly were *not* democratic. Legitimacy was not their objective, otherwise they would have done almost everything they did differently.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you sound like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
это уже нагло говорить такое! please use logic here. WHY WOULD PEOPLE KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE?! you think that maidan supporters would snipe another maidan supporter? also - please check your sources. I believe in North Korea there is quite a bit of filtering of information. I think you've lost all credibilty in this whole conversation.
I in fact, have the same question. And I may have the awnser. It provokes violence, and frames the police.
''Alright, we need to make our enemies look bad, what we do?''
''We shoot at our own people!''
''uw0tm8''
''That's the point! People would think that the police killed our people!''
''ooh''
what you are saying is retardation. at its finest. Because the police allied with the people two days later.
You seem to not have a solid understanding of the internal military system of ukraine.
-Berkut - our riot police who are mostly assholes because they are the succesor to the KGB
Berkut do not snipe people. In fact, there is no internal sniper division.
This was investigated by Ukraine and many different countries confirmed that the snipers were NOT ukrainian.
let me spell this out - SNIPERS WERE NOT UKRAINIAN
Berkut is riot POLICE. Police, see that word mate?
A former offical of Ukraine, I think for security said that the snipers fired from Maidan controlled buildings. And ofc, the Maidan people won't want to arrest their own, right? So they launch a false investigation.
I think we should all take a step back and consider. Obviously, the person-that-is-Tito is right. Consider the facts and history, and stop attacking him. He is trying to bring the truth out.
Everyone knows that Russia is the freest place on earth
= Democratic institutions and guarantees are not only unnecessary, they are irrelevant.
= There is no legal dissent, because No True Russian would disagree with the law.
= The Russians are a sentimental and just people; they keep the shells of these democratic institutions about, for those who like dead things, like museums and visiting Lenin.
Everyone knows that all of the other FRY 'nations' seceded because of CIA, and USA
= The people in the former Yugoslav republics felt betrayed by their leaders. We know this because from Slovenia to Macedonia, every day there are street riots and protests. All want to rebuild Yugoslavia and rejoin Serbia.
== Why don't we see this in the press? Hidden by CIA.
== Why don't we see this in the Russian media?
Russia never interferes in the internal politics of others.
== Why don't we see people who live in former Yugoslavia tell us of this?
They are traitors to the Ideal of Southern Slav State..
= Why do we know it was the CIA who caused the breakup of Yugoslavia?
== The West was obsessed with Yugoslavia since WW2. Every day, American media talks about Tito, or his brother, Michael.
== The KGB would have nothing to do with it because the USSR loved Yugoslavia, always supported Yugoslavia, always supported Tito.
Everyone knows the Crimean vote was fair and just
There were no Russian soldiers there.
== Or if they were there, they stayed in their bases.
== Or if they were on the street, they were not armed.
== Or if they were armed, the weapons were not ready to fire: No magazine in rifle.
== Or if the rifle had a magazine in it, the magazine was empty.
== Or if the magazine was loaded, there was no round in the chamber.
The pictures we all saw provided by Tito shows men in uniforms with rifles at safe, with magazines inserted.
== There is no proof that these men were Russian Soldiers or soldiers at all.
== The rifle is on SAFE to prevent the bolt from sliding back accidentally, putting a non-existent bullet from the empty magazine into the chamber. After all, this is easy to do accidentally with a Kalashnikov: A few newtons pressure, a few mm travel, and so so quiet.
== Alternate theory: Maybe it was to keep all the dirt and mud from the dirty streets from getting into the rifle, because Kalashnikovs jam so easily. It isn't called "GRIME - EA" for nothing.
The men in unmarked-uniforms with empty rifles that were on the streets were International Election Observers.
= International, because they weren't from Ukraine.
= Election, because they were there to guarantee the election went correctly.
= Observers, because they watched everything.
The armed and uniformed IEO was not there to intimidate the Crimean people into voting any particular way.
= The soldiers committed no violence because the election went the way it should.
= Obviously, votes to 'rejoin' Ukraine would be proof of election fraud would require action.
If you disagree, it is because you are Western.
If you aren't from the West, then you disagree because you are a traitor, a fascist, Roma, a muslim/jew/Roman Catholic etc.
Since facts and history proves everything he says it doesn't matter what you think or what your evidence is, if you disagree, you are wrong because of who you are - and this is something you cannot help so just be quiet and learn facts and history.
Here we can write a law, anyone can do that, and send it to lawmaking office. They will read it, debate about it, maybe change something if they think it need, send to the parliament and pm's will vote. Its easy as that because i live in a free society. Thats why we dont have gays here, anarchists, pankers, satanists and all that shit from the west. Because people doesnt want them. Gays can have anal sex in their house but not in the park. Thats violating of public peace and order. You can think of it as violation of human rights but we dont care. We know what is normal and what is sick.
If you think different please invade us and winner will make new society, loser will perish. If you dont want to invade then stay in your country and mind your own busines.
You forget that many eastern democracies are founded on the same principles as western democracies. Here too we can petition our MP to submit a law. We just can't hold random plebiscites to declare ourselves independent. We need to elect a government with a mandate to do so. This is by no means anti-democratic. Zombi is right. Mob rule =/= democracy.
BTW, it's also illegal to have sex in public areas (gay or straight).
Not our problem you are poor but keep spending billions on commercials and advertising pre-election campaigns. We dont have that here, we spend amount of money enough to pay workers to sweep the place up where elections would be held. Advertising goes to the newspapers(usually the serious politic newspapers).
We don't have that either. Parties here are limited on the amount of money they can raise (per donator) and on the amount they can spend on elections. I think you know that I was referring to cost to the state and not the political parties. Fair elections cost the state more than just "sweeping up the place". You need to ensure there is no fraud in the voting process. You need to register voters. You need people to man the voting stations.
Im losing nerves talking to ignorant people like you.
Fascist regime is where you impose your(usually) majority thinking and decisions over minority(doesnt have to be ethnic) who disagree. Like german way of thinking they are master race, or italian fascism, or modern albanian and now ukrainian. Though albanian went from fascism to nazism lately when they genocided serbs on the kosovo, nazism is high-end of fascism where you dont tolerate minorities and tend to kill or kick them out of your sphere of influence.
Totalitarism is where the state controls everything in the country. From politics, army, economy, news, schools. It doesnt have to be communist or fascist state. It can be capitalist like Greece 1970'. They had prosperous capitalist economy but were totalitarian. Similar today what exercise USA. Free economy and totalitarian regime, though it is reversed. Strong/rich companies like Coca Cola, Microsoft, G&S bank, Rockefeller, Rothschield own the state by the balls and control every layer of society. They have news, politics, military without their direct control so people think all that belong to people or state.
How exactly am I ignorant? On what topic? You seem to imply that I gave a wrong definition of facism, but nowhere in my post did I define facism. I did mention some elements of facism (also present in other forms of government).
You are using the facist label on all states who are opposed to Putin. You use it indiscriminately and incorrectly. I mostly agree with you on your definition of facism and totalitarianism. That is beside the point. That you can correctly point out definitions and some historical examples of facism doesn't make your statements about current day US and European countries any less ridiculous. It seems as if you are trying to cover up propaganda by mixing it in with some historical facts.
The US is far from being a totalitarian regime. The president is severely limited in power by congress and the senate. All the representatives of the legislative branch are democratically elected. They are far from functioning as a single unit. That certain large corporations may have too much of a large influence in the process is a problem, but it does not make the state totalitarian or facist (earlier you were stating the US was facist, which is it now?). Moreover, the interests of the different corporations and the government, while sometimes aligned, are often also at odds. They do not function as one block.
There is a diversity of news sources in the US. Most are privately owned, but owned by groups with different political alignment. Most news agencies are also very critical of the government on all kinds of issues, including foreign policy.
Russian politicians are elected by people, Russian news are half state owned, half private owned. Private part shows rubbish like big brothers, stupid shows and other crap while state TV stations show cultural channels, historical, art, music and everything that need to be show on strong and influent box as tv reciever. Russian military is controled by state because thats normal. Russian economy is free capitalists, though there are state-owned companies, like military complex that is serious business. Russia is one of the most liberal countries.
What's important is the news Tito. History and culture is nice, but Russians need to get accurate reports on the news. Are the state-owned news agencies critical of Putin? Many journalists critical of Putin have been imprisoned and even killed. Some news offices that dared to criticize Putin have been closed down or raided by police. Yes, many Russian people do vote for Putin & think he and his party are great. They have no access to information that would tell them otherwise. This is unhealthy in any democracy.
Meanwhile, political opponents of Putin are crushed and imprisoned. Those that would speak out against Putin are scared to do so. It is not even possible to protest anymore without facing years of imprisonment. Moreover, corruption is rampant and criminal groups have very close ties to many government officials.
No, I think both Russia and the US have serious problems. Still, Russia has only recently adopted democracy and I think it may not yet be there entirely.
No. There were russians in russian bases on Krim as there were for 500 years. Krim army was in their bases and on borders defending agaisnt ukrainians nazis who wanted to sneak in explosives. There were no troops in Simferopol before elections.
Just to be clear. Your version is that no armed men took over the parliament? The president left on his own? Also, there were no troops at all in Simferopol before the elections?
What do you make of all the videos showing troops in Simferopol before the elections? Is it all propaganda? All those well-equipped soldiers, some of them admitting to being from Russia, were all local militia?
Yes, i support the use of torture, it is the natural way of getting informations, i dont like to drug people to tell truth and be in risk to kill them with poison shit like drugs.
Only fascists? are you serious? Dude you really have to open your eyes. Guantanamo Bay. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam. How many torture camps americans built around the world. Capitalists, fascists, communists all use torture techniques. Stop being hypocrite.
Never said that facists were the only ones. I see that, like Tik Tok, you like to make up my arguments for me and then attack the made up position. I am no supporter of torture. My government has never used it to my knowledge. I am aware that the US has used torture and I am against this. How am I a hypocrite?
No they wont. Only weak and scared chickens. Terrorists are evil and crazy so you need to show them pain so they talk. The guy drove a truck full explosives so he can detonate it in the center of Simferopol. He could kill thousands, imagine if there was public gathering or something. Of course i would slap him and ask whats wrong with him.
Best era was Cold War, when KGB arrest and imprison infiltrated CIA agents. Oh that was a sight to watch. They were americans + cia + evil, best combination to torture. And of course, US government forgot about them, they left them in USSR to die, so much about honor and respect, they probably gave medal of honor to some lickass who didnt deserved it.
Your "weak and scared chicken" thing is just ridiculous. Most people would be scared of torture. Only crazy people wouldn't be. Yet you say use it on "crazy people"...!
Most people that support the use of torture do so with reluctance and only as a last resort. I see that you not only support the use of torture, but that you gleefully support it's use against political enemies. Only a sick mind would take pleasure in the torture of another human being. But then again, only a sick mind would want to sacrifice themselves and their whole family to destroy the USA.
you said it yourself. you said that there are a ton of videos of russians beating ukrainians. and you sound like a 5 year old the rest of the time tbh.
I said Ukrainian nationalists. AKA them Maidan people that killed their own protesters, sniped police.
So - you think that MAIDAN people killed MAIDAN people??? xaxaxaxa. dude you realize that there was an investigation on the snipers and they werent ukrainian...
The Estonian FM confirmed that Maidan snipes killed protesters, police and innocent bystanders.
это уже нагло говорить такое! please use logic here. WHY WOULD PEOPLE KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE?! you think that maidan supporters would snipe another maidan supporter? also - please check your sources. I believe in North Korea there is quite a bit of filtering of information. I think you've lost all credibilty in this whole conversation.
I in fact, have the same question. And I may have the awnser. It provokes violence, and frames the police.
''Alright, we need to make our enemies look bad, what we do?''
''We shoot at our own people!''
''uw0tm8''
''That's the point! People would think that the police killed our people!''
''ooh''
what you are saying is retardation. at its finest. Because the police allied with the people two days later.
You seem to not have a solid understanding of the internal military system of ukraine.
-Berkut - our riot police who are mostly assholes because they are the succesor to the KGB
Berkut do not snipe people. In fact, there is no internal sniper division.
This was investigated by Ukraine and many different countries confirmed that the snipers were NOT ukrainian.
let me spell this out - SNIPERS WERE NOT UKRAINIAN
Berkut is riot POLICE. Police, see that word mate?
A former offical of Ukraine, I think for security said that the snipers fired from Maidan controlled buildings. And ofc, the Maidan people won't want to arrest their own, right? So they launch a false investigation.
It was investigated by MANY people and groups. Please read and acknowledge everything that I'm saying or else you are like Tito, who is like a goddamn rock which you cant argue with.
I need you american to tell me what my slavic brothers will do?
Russian generals and Putin are more eager to fight and nuke USA than any other. Even i wish so. Lets end up this once and for all. I wont regret if i and my family die but we will destroy USA and send it to oblivion, then latin america and africa might get a chance to live normal without colonialist chains anymore. Without USA world will go back to normal. People will be creative again, will enjoy art instead shitty hollywood movies. No more CNN propaganda, no more USA to decide market prices, no more wall street to ruin financials. No more US army to destroy small countries.
Nowhere do you mention "if the US nukes 1st". Not even do you state that you would support this as an act of self-defense. And now, you suggest that the US invading Russia is only a matter of time; nuking the US now would be OK then?
In USA only two to four men control 90% of media. Try making report on US healthcare or wall street as independent news agency and see how long it will pass until police knock on your door. It will be sentence for life(reason: dealing drugs) or 20 years jail(murdering prostitute).
That's just false. There are countless reports on these topics. Starting from documentaries (Michael Moore, funded by a big corporation: Paramout), media (left wing independant political journals: The Nation, Mother Jones), news programs (MSNBC, TYT, etc.) all the way to comedy shows (The Daily Show). All of these outlets, whether small & independant or large and funded by big business have all criticized healthcare and Wall Street. None of their reporters have ended up in jail on false charges. Can you even name one example to back up your previous allegation? Or was it "covered up by the CIA" so that only eastern european news knows about it?
Putin imprisoned criminals. If they were politicians or businesmen doesmt matter, they made criminal actions and deserve to be punished. You western use it as excuse to attack Putin how he is dictator.
You can criticize Putin, but i dont know on what subject, he did nothing wrong so you can just report your opinion.
Never heard people being tortured and killed from pro-putin men so Putin can stay on power. Slander.
Putin systematically imprisons politicians and reporters that were against him. That they were charged on false criminal accusations does not make them criminals. I laughed when I saw "You can criticize Putin, but i dont know on what subject, he did nothing wrong". You seriously can't name one thing that Putin might have done wrong? Or you're simply saying that no media reports against him because he is perfect? O.o
I never said Putin's opponents were tortured. I've never seen any proof of that - though it would be hard to prove (so too have I not seen any proof of the US sub-contracting torture to other countries, but I suspect it exists). I said political opponents of Putin are crushed, imprisoned and killed. Here are some examples:
Journalists
List of journalists killed in Russia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia. One notable example is Anna Politkovskaya, who was famous for criticizing Russia's actions in Chechnya. There are countless other examples of journalists critical of Putin (or previous administrations) that were imprisoned, beaten or physically threatened. This is just a list of those killed.
Politicians and political
1) The arrest and detention of opposition leader Alexey Navalnyy
2) Gary Kasparov was charged with yelling anti-governement slogans and allegedly assaulting and biting a police officer
3) some more examples of actions taken against political opponents of Putin can be found here: http://www.theotherrussia.org/category/repression/
4) In general: "Most opposition organizations independent from the Kremlin encounter a draconian law on political parties, refusals of registration by the Justice Ministry, censorship in major mass media, primarily federal TV channels. According to Vladimir Ryzhkov, "over the last 4 years (i.e. from 2007 - Ed.) for identical "formal reason" nine political parties were denied registration - from left to right. And not any new party was registered. In modern Russia, this is not possible"." -- Wikipedia: Russian Opposition
Crimean soldiers celebrated joining Russia after referendum. Russians didnt had soldiers in Simferopol, those were unmarked soldiers, probably ukrainians payed by CNN to say they are russian on telly, big deal.
Some of these guys admitted to being Russians. CNN paid them? Proof or it's not true.
So Americans are sick-minded, and enjoy with pleasure torturing another human being.(guantanamo)
No. I think those that support using torture are disgusted by its use but think it is necessary. I disagree with them and many Americans do as well. You, on the other hand, gleefully welcome the torture of your political enemies. That is sick.
Obviosuly you are trolling, so i will just claim victory in debate since you cant continue. God speed.
I have never observed any external truth or fact impeding any claim you have ever made.
In any case, I don't post for win, I post for truth when I see falsity, and questions when I seek input.
Don't really want to get in the way of your twos argument but felt it was easy enough to answer this question.
Any of the Russian Republikas before the 1800's. Most notably the Republika of Novogorod, along with many of the oblasts that joined Russia as a republikas such as Komi.
Now what I cam where to actually post...
IMG
Putin wins. He has crimean waifu.
Huh, interesting. Thanks for posting some actual information w/o accompanying propaganda. Well maybe your pick was propaganda but it was funny. Funny in a good way I mean.
I looked into the Novgorod Republic. I didn't know about this. A medieval kingdom with elections appointing the archbishop (who also ruled the state). Very interesting! Seems those people were very much ahead of their time. Too bad the Moscovites conquered it in the 15th century. Same seems to have happened to Komi.
Seems there's some controversy too on whether Novgorod was actually democratic: "Whether it was a democratic institution or one controlled by the boyars has been hotly debated." --Wikipedia: Novgorod Republic
Russian generals and Putin are more eager to fight and nuke USA than any other. Even i wish so. Lets end up this once and for all. I wont regret if i and my family die but we will destroy USA and send it to oblivion, then latin america and africa might get a chance to live normal without colonialist chains anymore. Without USA world will go back to normal. People will be creative again, will enjoy art instead shitty hollywood movies. No more CNN propaganda, no more USA to decide market prices, no more wall street to ruin financials. No more US army to destroy small countries.
Nowhere do you mention "if the US nukes 1st". Not even do you state that you would support this as an act of self-defense. And now, you suggest that the US invading Russia is only a matter of time; nuking the US now would be OK then?
Russia, and the USSR were very strong game theorists. This is why they quit playing Cold War
I think that the humor line has been crossed.. Let's tell some unalloyed truth.
The Cold War ultimately ended because Soviet intelligence analysts were able to convince Soviet politicians of the obvious truth; The Cold War simply could not be won by the USSR, but someday might be won by the West.
The West, as a rational opponent, would be forced to destroy the USSR in short order, and the [u]destruction of the USSR would be the destruction of the Russian people.[/u]
The End of the Cold War was not the destruction of the Russian people.
Russia was bled dry subsidizing Communism worldwide, and the Worker's Paradise was not going to be achieved in the foreseeable future - Liberal Democracy and Capitalism ensured that Proletarian Revolution was unlikely to occur in industrialized nations and Communism only ever spontaneously erupted in agrarian societies. As time marched forward, there were fewer agrarian societies, and the few triumphs of Communism were more likely to be nationalist in nature than USSR client states.
These same analysts and politicians also knew that their conventional forces were unable to mount effective, large-scale extended offensive operations. In two weeks or less, spare parts, fuel and ammunition would be depleted, at the very moment when US amphibious resupply of NATO forces kicked in to high gear. Only nuclear strikes against American and British fleets could prevent this. They could never conquer and hold Europe.
Poland and Ukraine, the backbone of the non-Russian Warsaw pact, were at least as likely to mutiny than attack the West, and could only be relied upon if the No-Case Scenario occurred: NATO attacks the Warsaw Pact with the intent to conqueror Russia, Ukraine and Poland. Poland would not fight purely to defend Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine would not fight merely to defend Poland and Russia. Western Europe could not be conquered and held.
The Soviet Nuclear forces (Navy/SRF) could never mount an effective counterforce (against missiles) attack against the USA and were unlikely to be able to mount a second-strike countervalue (against cities) revenge.
Simply put, at its most effective, the USSR could destroy every Western city of consequence, but only if it struck first, and even still, could not prevent a counterattack which would destroy every Warsaw Pact city of consequence. Every year, between Western wealth and technological innovation, it was increasingly likely that the USA would develop a perfect counterforce capability, able to destroy the Soviet threat, and counter or absorb the Soviet response.
Soviet planners were left with grim choices:
1. Dramatically increase missile production to blunt American counterforce projection.
2. Attack the USA before counterforce pefection was achieved.
3. Capitulate.
Option 1. was unsustainable; the Americans could outspend the USSR in a missile race anyway, and American technological innovation was increasing counterforce capability with marginal expenditure.
Option 2. America would be destroyed, the USSR would be destroyed, and likely, human extinction would occur. Capitalism would be destroyed, but the Revolution would not happen.
Option 3. Not politically viable.
The Soviet planners and politicians knew their American counterparts would have 2 options once counterforce perfection was achieved:
1. Attack enemy nuclear assets immediately: Counterforce perfection is at its greatest value if your enemy hasn't yet attacked.
2. Capitulate: At the peak of your power, surrender, so your enemy doesn't cause human extinction.
Soviet Politicians chose option 4: Negotiate a political solution, end the Cold War, prevent the extinction of the human race.
===
The Soviets who ended the Cold War were utterly ruthless, calculating, power-hungry and cold-blooded men, who in the end were human beings and rational patriots who loved their country.
They were confident in their decision, because their Western counterparts were the same type of men.
100 American cities burning, all at once? Human civilization ends, at the very least. You've killed any chance for South American and Africa.
Everyone knows that all of the other FRY 'nations' seceded because of CIA, and USA
= The people in the former Yugoslav republics felt betrayed by their leaders. We know this because from Slovenia to Macedonia, every day there are street riots and protests. All want to rebuild Yugoslavia and rejoin Serbia.
== Why don't we see this in the press? Hidden by CIA.
== Why don't we see this in the Russian media?
Russia never interferes in the internal politics of others.
== Why don't we see people who live in former Yugoslavia tell us of this?
They are traitors to the Ideal of Southern Slav State..
WTF we all love our leader Nikola Gruevski ,only albanians and traitors make riots in street
Macedonians never whanted to be part of shit Yugoslavia
Ave Nikola Gruevski
Ave Macedonia
Ave me
If america fall world will continue to live. If Russia fall world will continue to live. States and people arent that important for the planet. Forests, woods, rainforests, deserts, rivers, seas, oceans will continue to live, expand and prosper. Animals and plants will have endless boundaries to travel and breed within.
There are plenty of situations where every person in the United States and Russia could die and human civilization could continue/might prosper - a USA/Russia nuclear exchange is not one of them.
Even a limited nuclear exchange between Russia and the USSR has tragic, global consequences - there's the immediate climactic effect, fallout, and economic disruption, and an end to any technology containing transistors. Human extinction is not a likely outcome, but the end of human civilization is.
Macedonians never whanted to be part of shit Yugoslavia
Yes, we need you to tell us macedonians never ''whanted'' to be part of ''shit'' Yugoslavia.
First, learn english if you want to debate, thats criteria.
Second, you trashtalked me and my comrades in messages so your statements are auto-invalid because obviously you are fascist who want ethnicaly cleansed ''greater'' macedonia from albanians, serbs and greeks. We dont debate with idiots here.
Komi still a proud republika to this day. o7 Though I cannot say the reindeer have always taken part in governmental affairs.
If you looked up Novogorod republika then i assume you also saw the Pskov Republika? Either way even to this day people can argue if a country really was democratic or not. Sometimes myself find this term confusing and at best I can use the term to mean, that part of the people take part in voting.
Well then I hope the spirit/traditions of those early democracies perdure and are not forgotten by Russia's people and politicians.
North Korea calls itself a democracy. So does China. I think totalitarian states like these will try to exploit this confusion as much as possible and change the meaning of words like democracy so that they can come to mean the opposite of democracy. The same for freedom and propaganda.
In my mind there are at least a few important elements in a modern democracy:
1) that all citizens be able to vote freely to elect their representatives
2) that there be freedom of expression for both the citizens and the press
3) that there be a real choice (more than one party/leader) in the elections
I'm curious about your view of modern Russian democracy. I'd like to get another point of view than Tito's (I feel that what I get from him is similar to what I'd get talking to a very zealous member of United Russia). Clearly the Russian democracy of today is very different from the early Republikas you mentioned. In between, there were the Tsars and the USSR.
Do you think there is absolute freedom to criticize the government in Russia today? Or do people just not criticize because they all love the government so much and that Putin has no flaws? Do you think all journalists and politicians imprisoned were imprisoned not because they were critical of Putin (or Yeltsin), but because they were criminals? What do you think about the lack of political opposition to Putin? Are you happy about it or does it worry you?
What I get from Tito is really not convincing. In fact, it makes me even more worried about the state of Russian democracy then I was at first. Instead of trying to convince me that democracy in Russia is healthy, he is trying to convince me that everyone loves Putin unconditionally. That everyone thinks the same in terms of politics. That the Russian leadership has never done anything that anyone would want to criticize. That Russia is the greatest, most powerful and most advanced country in the world. Frankly, I would get the same from a North Korean official talking about Kim Jong-un and North Korea.
I'm sincerely hoping that you (or anyone else from Russia) reassure me that things aren't that bad.
There are no anti-gay laws in Russia. They can have anal sex if they want to, but in public. Russian police doesnt storm appartments and houses looking for gays to jail for their ''perversion''.
The law that was described as anti-gay is one stopping people from organizing rallies and publicly indicating their sexual orientation. It is the anti-gay "propaganda" law. It has nothing to do with stopping gay people from having sex in private. It seems like you know very well what parts of that law where criticized and are purposefully trying to make it into something else.
Yes, IF usa nuke first, we are eager, ready, and prepared to retaliate. When you are ready that doesnt mean you WANT to strike first, that can mean you want to strike SECOND. I WANT to strike usa, but i want to strike SECOND. If america dont shoot we wont shoot too. Cold War will continue into 2100.
Ahh, well is seems you forgot to mention that in your initial post. You also didn't think to correct me the last 3 times I took you up on this issue... Perhaps today you feel like presenting a more reasonable front?
Michael Moore is different story. He is movie director and has many friends in the etertainment industry so he can make a movie which criticizes america. He is too strong and he can do it. Competition and selection is the strongest ive ever seen. Rarely who can succeed there on their own as individua. Easiest way is just to apply for big corporatios whether thats lawyer inc, steel inc, doctors lobby, pilots lobby or politics. 12th suicide this year happened week ago, young wall street broker killed himself because he couldnt stand the pressure.
I don't think you know where are you going here. Micheal Moore is not an exception. There are many just like him. He is just a popular version of many less known journalists. It is true that some journalists face lawsuits from companies they criticize. I'm not saying there are no problems. Still, there are thousands upon thousands of critical reports of the US or it's government. I am surprised that you are not aware of this as you are so vehemently anti-american. It seems that you are just as unaware of the American media as you are of it's culture. You know of only Hollywood and Michael Moore (the Hollywood equivalent of opinion journalism). Perhaps, if you wanted to be a better critic of America, you should get to know it a bit more?
Ive seen countless times reporters(usually young, probably bribed from the west) slander and criticize Putin, did they all ended up in gulag. I doubt. Putin doesnt care what media writes about him, he doesnt give a damn, he is the strongest man on earth. He knows that people support him and people know Putin is not trying to harm them. In his last mandate he cleaned politics from criminals, west used that to slander how Putin imprisoned politicians who oppose him. Nonsense. Russian police just did their job.
I see that other way: Russia has free media, so anyone can talk what they want on the TV and report. So list of those reporters is big. Some of them ended up killed or died and list has been made to accuse Putin. Nothing else.
I have no doubt that the Russian police "did their job". Strange how all critics and opponents of Putin just happen to be criminals and/or paid by the west. Or how so many of the journalists reporting against Putin end up killed. I guess everyone else loves Putin unconditionally because he is perfect. Why bother with elections then?
Putin learned from Yugoslav example where after communist party disbanded 143202345654 parties were created. There were parties with only one man! Thats anarchy. Therefore Duma enacted new law where it says you need 2,000,000 signatures to create new party and you need another 2,000,000 to candidate on elections and you need to pass census so you can enter parliament. Thats healthy selection of parties elected by people, so we avoid one-man parties and fascist groups.
We're not talking about stopping the 1000th or 100th party from organizing. These laws are stopping the main opposition parties from organizing. That and arrests of their members and stopping them from organizing political gatherings. Is more than 1 party what you would call anarchy?
I never said i enjoy torturing political enemies. I said torturing is necessary for criminals and terrorists. Now if you call them political enemies or reporters, thats your thing and i cant change it, i call them criminals as they violate state laws and need to be punished.
Best era was Cold War, when KGB arrest and imprison infiltrated CIA agents. Oh that was a sight to watch. They were americans + cia + evil, best combination to torture.
Your wording then strongly suggests that you took some enjoyment in knowing that these "evil" people would be tortured. Perhaps, again, you feel like presenting a more moderate side today?
Komi still a proud republika to this day. o7 Though I cannot say the reindeer have always taken part in governmental affairs.
If you looked up Novogorod republika then i assume you also saw the Pskov Republika? Either way even to this day people can argue if a country really was democratic or not. Sometimes myself find this term confusing and at best I can use the term to mean, that part of the people take part in voting.
Well then I hope the spirit/traditions of those early democracies perdure and are not forgotten by Russia's people and politicians.
North Korea calls itself a democracy. So does China. I think totalitarian states like these will try to exploit this confusion as much as possible and change the meaning of words like democracy so that they can come to mean the opposite of democracy. The same for freedom and propaganda.
In my mind there are at least a few important elements in a modern democracy:
1) that all citizens be able to vote freely to elect their representatives
2) that there be freedom of expression for both the citizens and the press
3) that there be a real choice (more than one party/leader) in the elections
I'm curious about your view of modern Russian democracy. I'd like to get another point of view than Tito's (I feel that what I get from him is similar to what I'd get talking to a very zealous member of United Russia). Clearly the Russian democracy of today is very different from the early Republikas you mentioned. In between, there were the Tsars and the USSR.
Do you think there is absolute freedom to criticize the government in Russia today? Or do people just not criticize because they all love the government so much and that Putin has no flaws? Do you think all journalists and politicians imprisoned were imprisoned not because they were critical of Putin (or Yeltsin), but because they were criminals? What do you think about the lack of political opposition to Putin? Are you happy about it or does it worry you?
What I get from Tito is really not convincing. In fact, it makes me even more worried about the state of Russian democracy then I was at first. Instead of trying to convince me that democracy in Russia is healthy, he is trying to convince me that everyone loves Putin unconditionally. That everyone thinks the same in terms of politics. That the Russian leadership has never done anything that anyone would want to criticize. That Russia is the greatest, most powerful and most advanced country in the world. Frankly, I would get the same from a North Korean official talking about Kim Jong-un and North Korea.
I'm sincerely hoping that you (or anyone else from Russia) reassure me that things aren't that bad.
---
The technical term for the government/society you're looking for is probably best characterized as Liberal Democracy.
While there are other attributes required for Liberal Democracy than you and I list, I'd add rule of law, due process, and separation of powers, formalized respect for human/civil/political rights and liberties, and preservation/respect of/for the Loyal Opposition.
Ochlocracy/Mob Rule is a form of Democracy that embraces the three elements you list. Illiberal Democracy contains most of the qualities you and I both list, except for civil liberties. Both 'corrupted' forms of democracy include regular and 'free' competitive elections. Regular, free, fair and competitive elections, and universal suffrage are necessary, but not sufficient requirements for Liberal Democracy.
The technical term for the government/society you're looking for is probably best characterized as Liberal Democracy.
While there are other attributes required for Liberal Democracy than you and I list, I'd add rule of law, due process, and separation of powers, formalized respect for human/civil/political rights and liberties, and preservation/respect of/for the Loyal Opposition.
Ochlocracy/Mob Rule is a form of Democracy that embraces the three elements you list. Illiberal Democracy contains most of the qualities you and I both list, except for civil liberties. Both 'corrupted' forms of democracy include regular and 'free' competitive elections. Regular, free, fair and competitive elections, and universal suffrage are necessary, but not sufficient requirements for Liberal Democracy.
Agreed! Mine was far from a complete list. Only emphasizing some of the important criteria that I know aren't met in China & NK and that I think might be a source of concern in Russia. Separation of powers is another one (especially between the executive and judicial).
I see where other countries may have concerns and no not everyone here loves Putin and Supports Yedinaya Rossiya. I say maybe A little more then half the population. He is the "Best" option for most of us voters though. He helped russia out of a recession. He put things in order, and he is relatable. I don't support Yedinaya Rossiya, I would prefer if the communists got their act together but it was only a little while ago they failed us. State of democracy in Russia seems mostly fine to me. Yeah we are allowed to criticize. I personally would like to some things out of the national goverments hands though. Just marriage in general as an example. Let every oblast decide for itself if homosexuals can marry or if polygamy is legal. That way some of islamic /liberal oblasts and would feel better. o7
Thank you. That's reassuring
So is the communist party now the most credible opposition in your mind? Do they advocate return to a non-democratic "interval" to allow proper implementation of communism?
As I understand it, they were part of the Other Russia coalition a few years ago. This was the principle opposition. With the new laws, these guys were no longer able to register as a party... What do you think of that? Or was it because they were just poorly organized?
The law that was described as anti-gay is one stopping people from organizing rallies and publicly indicating their sexual orientation. It is the anti-gay "propaganda" law. It has nothing to do with stopping gay people from having sex in private. It seems like you know very well what parts of that law where criticized and are purposefully trying to make it into something else.
Why do you have a need to indicate your sexuality, fav sex positions and what you like people to do to you so you can cum in public?
We dont care what sex position and partner you like to have sex with.
In public you have to be decent and behave yourself. Gays rallied and were almost naked with only leather belts on. Nudity is against the law of public peace and order.
I do like to recieve a blowjob from hot blondes but i do not go around telling that in public and forcing people to listen, and if they gtfo me i dont say ''omg they so ignorant, they dont tolerate my sexuality''.
Great view.Only 500 years back.Who the fuck is gona dictate me what i say in public and who am i allowed to fuck.I am a free person and i can do whatever the hell i damn please.And yes if i want im gona show it off in public, its my right if you dont like it stay at home where its safe from evil "sexual" and "nude" people.or better take putin and go the mountains and live with goats and bears.Also about minors,i want my kid to know he has a choice.I want him to know that if he is a fairy or have a weird sexual fetish its fucking ok and theres nothing wrong with him/her.I dont want him to hate himself and then blow his brains out or hang himself.
In the end our diferences that divide us with all of you right wingers, is pure and simple.We love humans and freedom and you love nothing except order and security.
We're not talking about stopping the 1000th or 100th party from organizing. These laws are stopping the main opposition parties from organizing. That and arrests of their members and stopping them from organizing political gatherings. Is more than 1 party what you would call anarchy?
More than 6 is anarchy. There are only 3 ideologies that can be combined in 3 ways: communists, capitalists, nationalists combined(or not) with liberalism, socialism, conservativism. Therefore you can have communist party, nationalist pary, socialistist, socialdemocratic, liberal democratic.
Please dont use the word anarchy in situations where it doesnt belong.Nothing anarchistic in your corrupted modern political system.
Great view.Only 500 years back.Who the fuck is gona dictate me what i say in public and who am i allowed to fuck.I am a free person and i can do whatever the hell i damn please.And yes if i want im gona show it off in public, its my right if you dont like it stay at home where its safe from evil "sexual" and "nude" people.or better take putin and go the mountains and live with goats and bears.Also about minors,i want my kid to know he has a choice.I want him to know that if he is a fairy or have a weird sexual fetish its fucking ok and theres nothing wrong with him/her.I dont want him to hate himself and then blow his brains out or hang himself.
Its fine bro, do as you say in your country, gangbang people on the street. But not in Russia. Oh you dont like it? Oh im sorry... invade, win and change system. Oh you cant win? Russia too strong and has nukes? Oh im really sorry, we didnt think i guess, we made it accidently strong, our bad.
I do as i want in my country and i fuckin love it I could go to London and stay there but seriously i love my Athens so much im staying here no matter what happens.I wonder if the same thing can be said about Russians.I know half of the population wants to migrate and go West.Instead they just drink themselfs to death.I dont care about your nukes,shove them,i care for the normal Russian citizen who cant live in an enviroment with basic personal freedom and liberties,that my ancestors provided you with, thousands of years ago.
Please dont use the word anarchy in situations where it doesnt belong.Nothing anarchistic in your corrupted modern political system.
Corrupted would be Papandreou and his totalitaristic rule of 20 years. Corrupted would be Pasok. True democracy in country where other political parties and politicians being repressed by ruling elite. No wonder Greece collapsed. No laws, no moral, no money, and now no army to stop the nazis. Greece is falling into chaos, it will be like Ghana. But you keep advertising more freedom. Let people kill each other on the streets like on wild west. Give more freedom to albanian mafia, let them run economy and black market. Let them enslave greek girls, its free isnt it?
What nazis are we supposed to stop?It saddens me that Russian kids dont know how to defend themselfs against fascist bullies in Russia.I see them videos everyday.I learned how to make molotov at age 14 as many other kids here and how to protect my freedom and rights,behind the computer or in the streets.Instead of learning how to end a bottle of vodka in 10 seconds,cough.so yeah we know how to deal with terorrist cops and fascists here,or with the corrupted polititians and their minions.Just wish that Russian kids stop being submissive and fight back for their country,but i admit its not very easy,Russian fascists are everywhere and they are scary..i wish i could help them.Also i will take poor and chaotic over your "rich",fascist,totalitarian, where everybody is so happy that wants to kill himself or migrate,every day.
