Beating Perfect Defence: One man's quest. [REPORTS]

~PREFACE~

This post and those that follow, as I chronicle my perennial struggle against Perfect Defence, will contain a lot of whining, a lot of hate and a lot of buttfrustration directed at Perfect Defence strategy (PD). Take it with a grain of salt, if you please. I'm a renowned troll in these parts.

That being said, I've had enough of being dismantled by easy-mode PD users who just patiently sit in their cities, dismantling wave after wave of attacks directed at them, and then casually walk all over you with that cheap, hated unit: Infantry. I myself would never stoop so low as to play the damn thing myself; thus, I've decided to try every other strat in turn against some of the best PD players I know (in fact, if you want fairly easy SP, drop me a message and we'll duel. The only condition is that you have to use PD, and that we're in Europe or Europe+)



1. Know thine Enemy

PD relies almost exclusively on infantry spam (transports notwithstanding). They won't use destroyers, tanks or bombers, since these have nerfed stats. Perhaps later on in game, some use Marines, but I've rarely seen this happen. Fully upgraded and with a general, infantry are LETHAL. They have the highest defence of purchasable units in game, along with enough attack to seriously worry anyone who isn't playing a very defensive strat themselves. 10 PD infantry can take out 10 neutral militia (without a general): the PD player will expand pretty much as fast as most other strats. Don't kid yourself, as I did, into thinking they have any sort of handicap when compared to using normal infantry. They don't. The infantry is fast, it's resilient, and above all: dirt cheap.


2. Journal Entries

In all of the below entries, the map is always Europe. Starting funds were 5000, and the opposing player was naturally using PD. The name of the entry is the strat I used. I will update more once I get through the different strats.

A) Guerilla Warfare

Me: Greece, Him: Ukraine. He was on his way to winning a clean victory before disconnection issues plagued him. Controlled Athens and two of my cities. Had this been a capture capital game, he would've won it before getting disconnected. (It was a country capture). My militia couldn't do anything against PD infantry inside cities (5 atk vs. 8 defence, I need more than twice as many miltia to beat them). The marines I had time to make (8 attack) had to get past defence lines, which is a perfectly valid way to fight against GWF. I have concluded before, and this match served to prove it, that Guerilla Warfare is possibly the worst strat to use against PD. Slow development, weaker or more expensive units.


B) Blitzkrieg

Me: Denmark, Him: Greece. Result: victory to Greece.
Very tight match. My quick expansion power helped me never run out money, but the -2 defence was a great setback. It forced me to use defence lines around every capital, or I would lose it. Turkey/Greece is a total of 4 high pop. cities, or 32 units on reinforcement week. I could've tried an alternative approach: attacking him in those critical first weeks (1-4) instead of expanding to Ukraine, Poland, France...
My tanks could do nothing: 16 tanks lost to 16 infantry at some point in Rome (12 infantry died - that's a 25% survival rate for him). I resisted for a while, mainly due to skilled defence-lining in central Europe with my faster militia. bombers were not really an option, but I should've used more to break up his defence lines. Having long range is cool.
Will definitely try Blitzkrieg again, I was close. Next up: Great Combinator

Nice report there Iron. Perfect defence is a hard tactic to play against. As you know, i play it a lot. The weakest points for PD are;
1) It cannot expand quickly
2) When attacking, it's very weak (like you say; it beats militia; but PD will not beat the infantry even not with 15 to 10)
3) Therefore; It needs a large group for a good attack, so it cannot attack on serval places toghether.
4) Defence-lines around capital cities are necessary; it tells me where the opponent will strike next, so i can move my infantry into the city in the turn after the wall has been destroyed. And that will bring me to point 5
5) It takes a lot of time to build or repair defencelines every round. 2mins rounds are just enough for europe(+); when you don't have to do much chatting . When playing Eurasia in a later stadium, you really need 3mins. Even with auto-buy.

So; if you play against PD, it is best to do the opposite things of what PD does. So; expand quick, keep destroying the defencelines and attack where the least expected (the last thing can be done best with marines). Also building defencelines yourself will help you to keep the PD player from expanding quick.

I think Blitzkrieg is one of the best options to play, when playing against PD. Even though infantry is cheap; PD can also run out of money, when he cannot expand (as it was the case in report B). Turkey and Greece alone, doesn't give PD enough money, to auto-buy every 4 weeks.
Also you should try Tank Commander. When i play PD, a tank commander can take my cities, witch are crowded with infantry. But luckely for the PD player: Players above rank 6 don't use Tank Commander very often.

You've made two mistakes, infantry standard defence with PD is 7 and they get +2 in city or defence line, which means 9. GW marines get no bonus, and they have 7 attack. The difference is in ARB, infantry get 2 and marines 3, though any self respecting PD lamer has lucky infantry upgrade, so you get equal ARB. Now if you invested in Lucky Marines, you're 1 ARB ahead but he's 2 points of defence ahead compared to your attack.
Additionally PD infantry get +1 defence vs tanks, which means in a city or a line 10 def vs tanks, while tanks with tabnk general have 9 attack (but 4 ARB compared to 2+1 for infantry). Though I remember reading that the higher the ARB the less likely.

I agree with most of it, but there are two special points that are perfect:

1) PD is an easy-mode of playing AW - there are really no issues with playing it even if it's the first time you are using it. Now imagine a more experienced player with it and using auto-build with cheap units and then you can't do any sneak atack at all.

2) GW is, in fact, the worst strategy to use against PD, that's for sure. I really love to use my cheap marines and buffed militias, but they are useless against any decent PD player, since he can simply ignore my marines (wait for me to waste them against some of his huge stacks all over the map) and outnumber me in a militia vs infantry fight.

I don't think, anyway, that it's a buffed strategy at all, but it also gives no fun to play against, since you have to build only one unit and make only one movement (keep advancing and stacking no matter what).

Why didn't you try ironfist yet

Feel free to pm me for a match in Europe if you're a PD player.

C) Iron Fist

Me: Belgium, Him: Poland, Result: sketchy victory to me

Breakthrough at last! Although very sketchy, Iron Fist tanks proved very powerful against his infantry, with their increased HP. It meant that I had a 15% higher chance than him after each roll to have a tank still standing, and this allowed me to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Still, it wasn't the cleanest game, since one disconnection issue occurred for a short time during one turn. Must try using it against an enemy who is less fond of starting near me (i.e: Hugosch)

Iron fist is the best strategy for small maps.
Nothing beats the additional health, it's almost like doubling attack and defence for 75% of your units as they usually get to survive one turn longer than they normally would, IMO it's the most OPed strat in small maps.

Kirjutas BASED Ironail, 24.05.2011 at 16:11

10 PD infantry can take out 10 neutral militia (without a general)

lolno. Don't kid yourself. This doesn't even happen 35% of the time.

Iron fist is definitely the most OPed strategy on small maps, especially when starting out with more than 5k.

PD is the most OPed for dirt poor starters.

GC is nice, and I find GW hard to win with. Maybe not worth it unless you can take your opponent out quickly?


I almost never do PD for a big map game.

Monitoring this thread

Transforming this into a "how to beat Iron Fist" thread. It's now become the hardest strat to beat: to date, I've only managed it with Guerilla Warfare, but only if I'm pro.

Also, only managed to beat Hugosch (one of the best, if not the best) Europe PD players out there with IF. (Me Austria, him Greece)

Kirjutas Vespre, 06.06.2011 at 04:18

Kirjutas BASED Ironail, 24.05.2011 at 16:11

10 PD infantry can take out 10 neutral militia (without a general)

lolno. Don't kid yourself. This doesn't even happen 35% of the time.

Iron fist is definitely the most OPed strategy on small maps, especially when starting out with more than 5k.

PD is the most OPed for dirt poor starters.

GC is nice, and I find GW hard to win with. Maybe not worth it unless you can take your opponent out quickly?


I almost never do PD for a big map game.

You don't want to see PD in Eurasia if you have MoS or SM, trust me.
NEVER FORGET

How to beat Iron Fist:

Stop playing Europe all the time you dolt.

GOODBYE I BLITZ NAO KEKEKE.

Tsiteeri:

Tsiteeri:

You don't want to see PD in Eurasia if you have MoS or SM, trust me.
NEVER FORGET

Hehhe; true. PD on Eurasia is even more easy then on europe :). When you start in asia you can use the auto-production; and you just have to move your infantry west .

Everything is easier on Eurasia, to be honest. But I bet PD china is very beatable with Europe and its infinite money.

When a (good) PD player has india and china; it cannot be beaten by europe. I never experienced that.

Kirjutas Hugosch, 15.06.2011 at 18:32

When a (good) PD player has india and china; it cannot be beaten by europe. I never experienced that.

Hugo is right, Iron you're wrong on that one.

We'll have to try it then. After my exams, when I have a good solid 3 hours ahead of me, I'm up for it.

Although, I did say PD China, not Chindia. It should be the Europe player's top priority to reach that region before the PD player can settle in.


edit: mfw 321 posts.

Vafika got a topic_id=1488 in cln forum

Kirjutas Aristosseur, 15.06.2011 at 19:29

Vafika got a topic_id=1488 in cln forum

Philipho proved today (again) that PD is beatable, beating me 2 times straight. I will have made small report (ironail style) about this: (sry for the worse English BTW)

Philipho's strategy on both games was: Guerilla Warfare

First game:
Me: Ukraine, Him: Austria.
In the first turn Philipo gave me a great start. I was able to get Belarus, Poland, Romania and Moldavia, leaving him with Serbia, Hungary and Slovakia. That also made me underestimade Philipo, in thinking it would be an easy game. Hell started in the second turn, as he blocked my attacks from poland and romania, so i was unable to expand more. I was able to create defencelines from out other cities in the back, makeing me think i could still attack, but he kept pressure on me all the time. He also gave me a lot of money problems, attacking me everywhere possible. He forced me to create troops everywhere and i was unable to get a countrybonus. In romania i was able to take Bulgaria, but i coudn't take anymore cities from there after that. I was only busy with defending Bulgaria and Romania and repairing my defencelines everywhere. He also took some cities in Ukraine with his Marines, so i needed to move backwards. I was able to capture and hold his capital for 1 turn, but i paid the price for that, letting him take Poland. After that; the game was over.

Second game:
Me: Greece, Him: Poland.
In the second game i knew that i could not underestimate Philipo. That's why i started in Greece this time, thinking it would be better for my money supply, and giving me a chance to start my infantry spamming from Turkey. My first turn started as planned (just as it happened in the firstgame), i took Turkey, Bulgaria and a small country in the balkan. He moved south pretty quick, getting Hungary and Serbia in the first turn. After that i moved (from istanbul) to Ukraine, to start a second front. I coudn't start a real attack in the south, because he keps attacking my defencelines and blocking my attacks with his militia spam from out the balkan. In Ukraine it was even more frustrating. I had an advantage because i had more troops then he had, but i was unable to make a good attack, as he holded the pressure on me every turn. After i was able to take Belarus, my troops got stuck. Again i was only busy with defending my cities and repairing my defencelines, even when i outnumbered him.

Conclusion again:
PD is beatable as Philipho shows; He is the first player to beat me 2 times straight on Europe 5k map. I'm hoping Cow or Sykin will beat him in the tournament, otherwise i have a problem . Great play Philipho; i think i can easely say that you are the hardest opponent i ever played against.

Kirjutas Hugosch, 15.06.2011 at 18:32

When a (good) PD player has india and china; it cannot be beaten by europe. I never experienced that.

;o

Kirjutas Hugosch, 16.06.2011 at 07:55

gg Philipho: I think I can easily say that you are the hardest opponent I ever played against.

D: but you said that to me too.

Kirjutas BASED Ironail, 19.06.2011 at 19:05

Kirjutas Hugosch, 16.06.2011 at 07:55

gg Philipho: I think I can easily say that you are the hardest opponent I ever played against.

D: but you said that to me too.

That was before i played Philipho

10 PD infantry can take out 10 neutral militia (without a general)

..wut...

These peeps is crazy yo,
I used GW against plenty of PD players.

Kirjutas Chess, 06.08.2013 at 08:54

Kirjutas Milkyy, 06.08.2013 at 08:25

10 PD infantry can take out 10 neutral militia (without a general)

..wut...

50% chance.
It all depends on how nice crits you get.
I have onced experienced that one GC Tank + Gen killed 8 Infantries. Happened in a CW if I remember right.
Very uncommon but it can happen.

Not 50% it's very unlikely that 10PD inf beat 10 neutral militia. It can only if you send 15-20 inf, then it's possible. But just 10vs10 it's very unlikely. Only with IF it's normal. Cause also in your example, you didn't send 1 tank and gen... Cause thats impossible xD

No I meant, it's not 50% chance of winning, it it's 10 vs10, it's less. Only 50% if you have sent more than 10 inf.

@Chess & Bertank

Acquiesce brought this post under the attention again, and indeed it was a nice post. But this is a post started in May 2011, more then 2 years ago. Since then the game has had some updates, and PD has been nerfed a few times. So it might be possible that attacks where possible to win, while the chance has decreased now.

Also keep in mind that the 'turnblocking' was a major factor in the gameplay 2 years ago, while its less important these days.