Real competition

I have stated it before and even demonstrated, elo in the current form is not an appropriate metric to be used to determine winners of a season, for duels or cw's for that matter. I am open to the idea of sponsoring real cash prizes for season winners if a proper league structure can be implemented. Often for real progress to occur there needs to be a paradigm shift.

How did you prove it?

Yeah, I don't think we're getting random matchups with random setups any time soon. Instead of cash prizes, hire a programmer

Kirjutas RaulPB, 20.01.2021 at 14:33

Yeah, I don't think we're getting random matchups with random setups any time soon. Instead of cash prizes, hire a programmer

Do you have $150K/year to hire a programmer with? I sure don't. So until then, I'm the only programmer atWar's got. (And its not even my main project....)

Tsiteeri:

Kirjutas Dave, 20.01.2021 at 14:50

Do you have $1.50/year to hire a programmer with?

1 dollar and 50 cents a year thats the cheapest programmer ive ever seen

Kirjutas Dave, 20.01.2021 at 14:50

Kirjutas RaulPB, 20.01.2021 at 14:33

Yeah, I don't think we're getting random matchups with random setups any time soon. Instead of cash prizes, hire a programmer

Do you have $150K/year to hire a programmer with? I sure don't. So until then, I'm the only programmer atWar's got. (And its not even my main project....)

just take out a loan... if my calculations are correct then there shouldn't be a problem

Kirjutas Tribune Aquila, 20.01.2021 at 16:30

just take out a loan... if my calculations are correct then there shouldn't be a problem

Hmm I think you're right. I'll call up the bank about that loan tomorrow. I'm sure it won't be a problem

Kirjutas Dave, 20.01.2021 at 14:50

Kirjutas RaulPB, 20.01.2021 at 14:33

Yeah, I don't think we're getting random matchups with random setups any time soon. Instead of cash prizes, hire a programmer

Do you have $150K/year to hire a programmer with? I sure don't. So until then, I'm the only programmer atWar's got. (And its not even my main project....)

I have 150k in monopoly money

Kirjutas Dave, 20.01.2021 at 14:50

Do you have $150K/year to hire a programmer with? I sure don't. So until then, I'm the only programmer atWar's got. (And its not even my main project....)

Ask DJ, he's the rich one here offering cash prizes and I totally understand it not being the priority either hehe

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 22.01.2021 at 09:05

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

....And the shit code they produce will be even worse than what we have now.

Kirjutas Dave, 23.01.2021 at 16:47

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

....And the shit code they produce will be even worse than what we have now.

It works for Microsoft and Google, not saying their code is any good mind.

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 18:25

Kirjutas Dave, 23.01.2021 at 16:47

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

....And the shit code they produce will be even worse than what we have now.

It works for Microsoft and Google, not saying their code is any good mind.

lol that's true

Even chile probably ranks higher then USA for best programmers/developers... need to get one of em chinese players, they probably the best and u can pay like 30 dollars a month xaxaxaxaxa

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 22.01.2021 at 09:05

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 22.01.2021 at 09:05

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

$500 per month is what my company pays for php coders, Paying upto $800 per month for IOT/.NET developers. And the work is fine

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 24.01.2021 at 14:22

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 22.01.2021 at 09:05

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

$500 per month is what my company pays for php coders, Paying upto $800 per month for IOT/.NET developers. And the work is fine

I wouldn't trust anyone who gets paid less than minimum wage at Walmart to code anything for me. The code is probably terrible, inefficient, un-commented, and buggy.

Kirjutas Witch-Doctor, 24.01.2021 at 14:25

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 24.01.2021 at 14:22

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 23.01.2021 at 16:29

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 22.01.2021 at 09:05

Hire a programmer from second world countries and not usa where u have to pay 150k a year, wheareas 30k will do for the same quality.

An indian html/php programmer is $500 per month

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

$500 per month is what my company pays for php coders, Paying upto $800 per month for IOT/.NET developers. And the work is fine

I wouldn't trust anyone who gets paid less than minimum wage at Walmart to code anything for me. The code is probably terrible, inefficient, un-commented, and buggy.

India does not have a minimum wage, however the average wage is $150. It seems you didnt read the thread. Certified Apple engineers in India get paid less than a bus driver here in the UK.

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

If you want to make this a serious discussion about hiring programmers then I would say, if you want to hire a foreign dev, the best value for your money is Ukraine. You can find very talented developers for around $50K USD per year.

I've hired and/or managed a lot of foreign devs in my career, and personally I have had the best success with Ukraine. Following that, Eastern Europe in general is pretty good (Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia, Romania, etc.). On the other hand Indian devs (as a whole) are the absolute worst... in my entire career I only ever found 1 Indian dev who was decent, and he charged $25 USD/hour! Not being racist, that's just being honest about what I've found through my own experience. (And yes, there are lots of other places to find good devs around the world... I'm only talking places where you can find good talent for cheap.)

So yes if I wanted to I could get a good programmer for less than $150K. Probably I could find somebody decent for as little as $50K. Sure there are cheaper devs but any less than $50K and you're very unlikely to get quality code from them.

Anyway my original point still stands... I was simply trying to say that we don't have the money to hire another programmer. $150K or $50K, it doesn't make any difference. I'm all that atWar's got, for the foreseeable future.

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 24.01.2021 at 14:22

$500 per month is what my company pays for php coders, Paying upto $800 per month for IOT/.NET developers. And the work is fine

Respectfully I would want to see that code, because I'm deeply skeptical you can get good quality code for so cheap.

The only solution is 1. continue with the status quo until atwar eventually expands with a mobile app that might enable the hiring of another developer or 2. get a co-owner to work on the game as well and sign a contract to share the game, this will provide 2x more ideas, 2x faster work or 3. there could be an investment in a programmer even before the platform expands if it is determined that their contributions will somehow provide return.

I believe in the last solution, so you should take out a $750,000 dollar loan to hire some programmers then boom this will be a multi-million dollar enterprise

Kirjutas Dave, 24.01.2021 at 15:03

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 24.01.2021 at 14:22

$500 per month is what my company pays for php coders, Paying upto $800 per month for IOT/.NET developers. And the work is fine

Respectfully I would want to see that code, because I'm deeply sceptical you can get good quality code for so cheap.

In terms of the quality of the code, as I am not a programmer there is no way for me to check the code, Therefore your opinion would be most welcome! I can PM some examples. As long as the software does what we need it to do, then we are happy, if there is bugs or errors, we make revision logs and usually the issues are resolved quickly.
To be honest, starting out in tech, I had lots of issues sourcing developers from south Asia , I have had to pay twice as developers abandoned, developers over promising and under delivering, plus many more tales of woe, however I have learnt its the same as any recruitment market, it's often hard to get right the first time. Now I have a reliable team, apart from having to nag them for updates they are trustworthy and reliable and the software does what it is supposed to do. $25 per hour seems very excessive for that market. I think overall there is good and bad in any given market and this is no different. Although I agree, Eastern Europeans are the perfect balance in terms of tech precedents, cultural identity and cost efficiency, however if you have the patience to push back on the quality assurance when outsourcing to India I personally believe it should not be fully ruled out, without full investigation as any other I assume would prove to be unviable.

Kirjutas Tribune Aquila, 24.01.2021 at 16:35

The only solution is 1. continue with the status quo until atwar eventually expands with a mobile app that might enable the hiring of another developer or 2. get a co-owner to work on the game as well and sign a contract to share the game, this will provide 2x more ideas, 2x faster work or 3. there could be an investment in a programmer even before the platform expands if it is determined that their contributions will somehow provide return.

I believe in the last solution, so you should take out a $750,000 dollar loan to hire some programmers then boom this will be a multi-million dollar enterprise

Not sure how you can take on liability of 15 x the annual revenue. This would take around 25 years to pay back without even being able to afford the developer.

Kirjutas Dave, 24.01.2021 at 15:00

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

If you want to make this a serious discussion about hiring programmers then I would say, if you want to hire a foreign dev, the best value for your money is Ukraine. You can find very talented developers for around $50K USD per year.

I've hired and/or managed a lot of foreign devs in my career, and personally I have had the best success with Ukraine. Following that, Eastern Europe in general is pretty good (Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia, Romania, etc.). On the other hand Indian devs (as a whole) are the absolute worst... in my entire career I only ever found 1 Indian dev who was decent, and he charged $25 USD/hour! Not being racist, that's just being honest about what I've found through my own experience. (And yes, there are lots of other places to find good devs around the world... I'm only talking places where you can find good talent for cheap.)

So yes if I wanted to I could get a good programmer for less than $150K. Probably I could find somebody decent for as little as $50K. Sure there are cheaper devs but any less than $50K and you're very unlikely to get quality code from them.

Anyway my original point still stands... I was simply trying to say that we don't have the money to hire another programmer. $150K or $50K, it doesn't make any difference. I'm all that atWar's got, for the foreseeable future.

I agree as well, anything less than $50k isnt good.

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 20:50

Kirjutas Dave, 24.01.2021 at 15:00

Kirjutas ITSGG1122, 24.01.2021 at 14:06

$500 a month is too little.
But what i meant to say, you do not need to pay that $150k a year.
Many companies in silicon valley just attract foreign cheap tech workers anyway.
Just look at this statistics.
https://prnt.sc/xka6dr
57% of techforce in silicon valley born outside the usa.
And this stat went to nearly 75% in 2018...

If you want to make this a serious discussion about hiring programmers then I would say, if you want to hire a foreign dev, the best value for your money is Ukraine. You can find very talented developers for around $50K USD per year.

I've hired and/or managed a lot of foreign devs in my career, and personally I have had the best success with Ukraine. Following that, Eastern Europe in general is pretty good (Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia, Romania, etc.). On the other hand Indian devs (as a whole) are the absolute worst... in my entire career I only ever found 1 Indian dev who was decent, and he charged $25 USD/hour! Not being racist, that's just being honest about what I've found through my own experience. (And yes, there are lots of other places to find good devs around the world... I'm only talking places where you can find good talent for cheap.)

So yes if I wanted to I could get a good programmer for less than $150K. Probably I could find somebody decent for as little as $50K. Sure there are cheaper devs but any less than $50K and you're very unlikely to get quality code from them.

Anyway my original point still stands... I was simply trying to say that we don't have the money to hire another programmer. $150K or $50K, it doesn't make any difference. I'm all that atWar's got, for the foreseeable future.

I agree as well, anything less than $50k isnt good.

You miss the point. Everything is relative to the economy in which it operates.
The wages in developing economies are substantially lower than that of developed economies.

Console.WriteLine("Real competition");

I unironically love how this thread became a serious, public conversation about why certain things can't be done right now and what it would potentially take to do them in the future. It's one of the things I love about this community.

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 25.01.2021 at 05:40

You miss the point. Everything is relative to the economy in which it operates.
The wages in developing economies are substantially lower than that of developed economies.

the intelligence in developing countries are also lower

Kirjutas vampire master V, 26.01.2021 at 19:08

Kirjutas Sun Tsu, 25.01.2021 at 05:40

You miss the point. Everything is relative to the economy in which it operates.
The wages in developing economies are substantially lower than that of developed economies.

the intelligence in developing countries are also lower

A very sweeping 'statement'. You are basically implying that, you are more intelligent than half of the global population, which is with respect palpable nonsense. I would go as far as to say among the middle classes in developing economies that the academic intelligence levels are higher, as higher standards of education are more accessible. Regardless, intelligence arrives in many forms and most people I meet from developing economies are able to construct a legible English statement or sentence, meaning I assume their (literal) Intelligence levels to be higher than that of your own and that is with English not even being their native language. Can you spot the irony here?
Here is an article you should read:
https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/15-indian-origin-executives-that-are-ruling-the-tech-industry/dinesh-paliwal-president-and-ceo-harman-international/photolist/67694412.cms